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I
welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me gri
former prime minister Harold Wilson
opined in the days before social media
that a week is a long time in politics I
tell you it's been a long hard 52 weeks
at the political callace joining us now
is a proper gentleman a knight of the
realm veteran chairman of a powerful
select committee a man of independent
mind
everything in short a parliamentarian
should be except for the fact that he's
a conservative sir Edward Lee MP welcome
to the Sputnik on that point you have
sound views on the Iraq War which you
opposed on the Middle East crisis on the
plight of Christians in Syria and so on
you share with me a Roman Catholic
background opposition to Youth inasia
and abortion and so on how can you still
be a right-wing con conservative which
part of the Holy father's message on
capitalism over the last 12 months or so
did you miss well I'm just beginning to
wonder if I'm a right-wing conservative
actually uh maybe I've got it wrong all
my life I am a right-wing conservative
in this you probably wouldn't approve
this Georgia I am a fite in economics
you know I believe in a flat tax system
which the conservative party has never
introduced or gone anywhere near I
believe in education vouchers in schools
uh so I buy that thatcherite agenda but
you're right because I'm a Catholic I'm
slightly idiosyncratic in terms of um
social conscience and I Michael go said
to me that I support the Pope in
everything apart from European
integration and one more other thing
because um I believe you've been a
minister for a short while in John
Major's um government but other than
that you've been a backbencher and all
in your whole parliamentary career why
are you not in the front bench well
that's a very good question I sometimes
ask that all the time why have I never
been put on the front bench why was I
sacked by John manger actually he he
tapped me on the knee when he sacked me
and he said you're you know there's
nothing to do with your competence but
he said you're just too independent
minded really you'd be happy on that a
badge of uh a badge of honor before we
leave the church Francis is the best
thing that ever happened to the Catholic
church in my lifetime uh at least he is
in his uh way of life and in the the
courage with which he's confronting
issues and the clarity with which he's
speaking about exploitation and the poor
and so on I I find it unprecedented and
it is Reviving The Church in many places
are you a fan I'm a great fan because he
comes from a new world actually I didn't
mind Benedict because probably unlike
you I'm quite a traditional catholic for
instance I love the Latin mass and
Benedict Was a superb Theologian and I
met him once he had a tremendous twinkle
in his eye but undoubtedly he was a bit
dry for many people although his speech
which we heard together in West Hall was
a brilliant Exposition on the state of
British politics but Francis is a man of
the people comes from the new world
articulates a sort of New Faith which I
think people find very appealing it is
much more open than perhaps Benedict was
one of the uh stories of the year has
been the horrific fate of Christians in
Iraq most of them Catholics calans uh
after the of the uh us UK Invasion and
occupation began to shatter effectively
shatter Iraq into a, uh pieces and then
a Repeat Performance in Syria where
Western backed Rebels are murdering
priests even Bishops destroying churches
this is a matter I know that you pay a
lot of attention to would you summarize
it well yes because I I went actually to
Iraq during saddam's time and I make no
defense of him but I went to Northern
Iraq where the Christian Christians are
and it was an absolutely peaceful
situation I know not politically free
but free for ordinary people then I went
back a few years later to Northern Iraq
and the position of the the Assyrian
Christians is appalling because we
wrongly invaded Iraq we have condemned
hundreds of thousands of people to death
and we have condemned tens of thousands
of Christians to death and to flight and
the situation now in those Villages that
I visited just two or 3 years ago is
even worse they're being enslaved
beheaded by isil so what a disaster I
know Sadam was appalling in every
respect politically in terms of
repression but he was no threat to the
west and actually he protected
Christians and actually so does Assad
indeed the Syrian picture is almost uh a
replica of that we had sitting in this
very chair mother Agnes uh the Mother
Superior uh of hes and uh hamama uh a
gentle woman saintly woman as she talked
about the life of Christians in Syria
before and after this uh this disaster I
said to William Hig you've been wrong
before indeed you've been wrong most of
your life but you've never been insane
before your policy of supporting these
jihadists in Syria is literally
insane well I mean our whole policy is
insane you remember that vote we had
last year the the pressure on people
like me as conservative MPS to support
the prime minister to bomb Asad the
Prime Minister actually summon me in I
sat as Clos as to this he you know he
begged me uh to uh to support him and I
didn't in the end but aad again for all
his faults and I've been to Damascus I
went to straight Street this is a this
is the home of Christianity this is
where St Paul you know after his
conversion went to this little house in
the middle of Damascus and now we have
condemned again because of our insane
policy death destruction and Mayhem you
could you couldn't make it up you
couldn't make it up and the danger of a
Middle East entirely free of Christians
because they've had to flee or die
that's the prospect that we're looking
at moving on you mentioned the uh prime
minister we're coming to the end of the
parliament what would be your uh report
card if you were writing it for him for
David C well I'm not entirely on message
you got to understand that with the
Cameroon project I mean I accept that
he's very bright he's very personable I
personally have no diff personal
difficulty with him at all I think he's
actually quite a nice chap in many ways
but I think what he's done and I've said
this to his fa to his face is he has
created ukip he's attempted to move the
party to the center on things like gay
marriage and he's alienated hundreds of
thousands of older conservative voters
who unfortunately are now voting ukip
and if we're going to lose the election
and obviously I hope as a loal
conservative we win I don't want to see
Ed Miller Band in Downing Street if we
lose the election it will be because
David Cameron has created this monster
ukip which is eating up our support it
is a monster isn't it ukip I mean you
are a euroskeptic and that's why he lost
his position in the major government um
but this is something beyond
euroskepticism the ukip phenomenon it is
dredging
uh a pond uh in which many Horrors live
uh at the bottom it's creating in my
opinion an an unsettled
unhappy uh s of our population which is
potentially quite dangerous it's like
all right-wing insurgencies they start
by saying everything's really miserable
in the country and there are some bad
things but let's face it you're pretty
fortunate to live in this country first
of all they convince you life is
miserable they then say this is a fult
of a minority and at the moment it's the
minorities the poles or the lithuanians
who I personally think are actually very
hardworking comp and all the rest of it
and the last centur Catholics too well I
was going to say that all the all the
bulgarians or reans the last century it
was the Jews you know who they were all
to F the rightwing insurgencies were
saying and then they they make some
progress but then they tend to implode
because actually they get too ambitious
and they break towards the left and I
think this is what farage is doing now I
mean I joke that I wouldn't join ukip
because they're not thatch right enough
and they're not right-wing enough he's
actually a populist and he's trying now
to win seats in the North in labor areas
I don't think he's going to but he's
starting to make his message a bit
incoherent do you understand me it's no
longer a straight thatcherite message no
uh the National Health Service is a very
good case in point they were for
privatizing it just 12 months ago now
they're posing as its redoutable uh def
Enders uh you've been in Parliament now
for uh more than 30 years uh that's a
life sentence even Mandela only served
uh 27 I see that you are running again
and I see that uh John Prescott's son
has just been chosen as your uh labor
opponent but you must be feeling fairly
confident with your 10,000 majority well
I I'm frail that he's standing it's a
bit of Glamour in Lincolnshire and I
think he lives in in lincolshire I think
he lives in my constituency so I welcome
him I welcome a big labor vote because
I'm afraid not only is he 10,000 votes
behind it's worse than that he's in
third place so the more people who vote
Labor uh is a fewer people who vote ukip
so I welcome him I'm sure he'll be an
excellent candidate I think this is
maybe a first try for him and then he'll
stand uh in Hull next time and get
elected for labor you mentioned Ed
Miland he's scarcely setting the Heather
on fire especially not in Scotland where
there is Heather but according to the
opinion polls labor is likely to be the
largest party in the next Parliament um
of course the impact of ukip cannot
fully be calibrated what sort of prime
minister do you think Ed milleran would
be I think he'd be absolutely
hopeless um I think he's just a I
wouldn't mind if he was a real Lefty but
the fact is that he's just sort of
classic establishment left and of course
I hate all the things like Mansion tax
and all that so I mean I I do assure you
that even the most independent minded of
MPS are desperate to stop Ed getting
into Downing Street so you can get back
into bed with Nick Nick CLE absolutely
not I lo him I think he's the biggest
hypocrite in British politics I can't
stand the man I mean if we if we're the
largest party this time we're going to
not let Cameron bosses around on this
we're going to have a vote in the 22
committee on the Saturday morning and
we're going to vote against the
Coalition and we're going to go it alone
as a minority government as we should
have done last time because coalitions
don't work it's the lowest common
denominated government finally 2014 Big
Lots Lots happened the past year what's
been the big event to you um I think the
biggest event has been the Scottish
referendum which was a fantastic display
of democracy and actually although you
wouldn't think it we won you know we've
kept the union and I'm a a romantic High
Tor I think preserving the United
Kingdom is much more important than
anything else even English votes for
English laws it's the great victory Of
The Year Scotland isn't finished though
sir Edward we fought the referendum we
were all over the country dozens of uh
public meetings and we won you're right
uh but it's not over yet I caution you
and other uh English Tories that
provocations like this English votes for
English laws and so on are Mana from
heaven for the SNP I really think those
who want to keep our small island in
this small world
together have to move very cautiously
and sensitively on this matter I was the
only Tor MP in the statement this week
William hag statement who just made that
kind of cautionary remark as I've just
said I said the union is more important
than anything else and I say all my
colleagues on the tour benches were
getting a bit over excited about this
the number of purely English bits of
business are really very small and
actually you could deal with this by a
sort of double veto you could let
Scottish MPS English MPS to the
committee St Age and and then have a
double vote with all of us and as
English MPS on third reading there has
to be a compromise you're right you
can't just change as I'm a conservative
I don't believe in sudden changes in the
Constitution so do it slowly do it by
consensus and don't provoke the Scots
because one more provocation and we
could lose this Union indeed and there
were moments in the campaign when we
thought we were going to lose sir Edward
Lee you're a great man I think you and I
should form our own uh party we'd uh
we'd sweep the country coming up after
the break Ben Fogle on the chos islands
you may not have heard of them but after
his interview you'll never forget
them welcome back to Sputnik almost
unbelievably in 1971 the British
overseas territory of the chos islands
was emptied of its entire population and
handed over to the US Air Force the
better for them to bomb and kill the
people of Vietnam there was no Faulkland
Island style sovereignty for the chians
they were the wrong color for a start it
was ethnic cleansing on a mass scale in
the war on terror it became clear
despite the lie in Parliament to the
contrary by the then foreign secretary
David miliband the US base there on
Diego Garcia still British territory was
used for secret rendition flights of
bewildered and blindfolded kidnappes on
their way to Secret prisons for
unspeakable tortures milben Parting Shot
Auda grass which killed all remaining
hopes of the chagos Islanders to return
to their homes was to declare the island
as the largest Marine protected area in
the world I.E two environmentally
sensitive for the human beings who once
lived there to return joining us now is
the redoubtable campaigner for the
rights of the chos Islanders television
personality allround Adventurer and the
first of our guests I think to have his
own waxwork at Madam to swords he's Ben
Fogle Ben thanks for joining us chagos
Diego Garcia choian most British people
don't know what we're talking about why
is that well it falls under the headline
the British Indian Ocean territories and
it's it's one of these awful stories
that just goes over people's heads some
people might have read about it but for
some reason it it doesn't it it doesn't
it doesn't stick and I don't know why
and I've been involved with this for
many many years years and and the
headline is very simple the story is
very simple that back in the 70s as you
mentioned the US was looking for a a
military base in the Indian Ocean they
discovered this uh small territory used
to be part of maius which was uh part of
the British Empire but it it got annexed
shortly before this deal was done and
the British government agreed to lease
Diego Garcia this is the main island the
British Indian Ocean territories as a
whole is made up of many many islands
Diego Garcia is the largest and uh and a
deal was was given to the US for them to
lease it for 50 years to build this huge
military base and the people were were
written out of History they they were
why why did the people have to be
removed there are many places with
military bases but they still got people
the us predicted way ahead of what has
recently been discovered that this was
going to be a a very secretive place
they didn't want any hum part of the
deal was that there could be no natives
as they called them there could be no
native population there so White Hall
went back suddenly discovered that there
were between 1500 and 18800 Islanders
choian people uh living there and they
decided to to wipe them off the face of
the Earth that I don't mean kill them
they stripped them of their passports up
until that stage they had British uh
citizenship and they deported them where
they put them in uh refugee camps in
maius and the SE shells the two nearest
Island chains and they were forgotten
about until uh various people started
campaigning and then in 2000 uh the late
Robin Cook um agreed to return their
passports they won a high court uh uh
bid for the right to return their
passports were returned to them and a
number came over to the UK and settled
very close to gwick where they landed
they settled in Crawley and that's where
they've lived ever since but they they
they that might seem like a large number
of people 400 but they are effectively
voiceless and that's why me a white
Englishman have spent the last 10 15
years trying to to campaign on their
part trying to to bring this to the
Forefront of politics well thank God for
you it's nothing for the Americans to
ethnically cleansed territories that's
what their state was based upon what is
remarkable to me that in the 1970s quite
a radical decade this wasn't seen as the
gigantic Scandal that it now seems at
least to me did it make no impact uh
when whiteall agreed to this it was all
it was all done very secretive
and you you alluded to the Forkland
Islands it was just a decade later when
we were going to war to fight for the
rights of those Islanders it it doesn't
make sense except for the color the fact
that the the Forkland Islanders are
white and the people from the choian
have much darker skin and and that's
what I can understand that the people
perhaps in Great Britain didn't care I I
I don't know exactly why there wasn't a
bigger fuss made up in interestingly a
couple of years later um uh it was
revealed that about 800 dogs the pets of
all the Islanders had been gassed at the
time and that was almost front page news
people were more horrified that um that
the dogs had been killed but it was
symbolic of so the US didn't even want
want the Labradors to see what they they
didn't even want dogs on the islands and
uh and and what really angered me was
several years ago when this Marine
protectorate uh this Marine status was
given to the to the islands was rolled
through I was um I was asked to back
this bid by a number of uh environmental
organizations I I am a self-confessed
environmentalist I'm a conservationist
and I was happy to do it on the
understanding the Islanders would still
have the opportunity to return but of
course what we've since discovered is
this MPA this Marine protector area
effectively wipes out excludes any toor
because they they could never you know a
lot of people have asked well if they
did return what could they do how could
they possibly resettle these Islands
well fishing would be a a big Mainstay
and and I have been fortunate enough to
visit these islands this is one of the
reasons I'm so passionate about it I I
visited about 10 years ago I went in
pseudo legally but uh I actually got
chased Away by uh by uh the British Navy
interestingly they they were the ones
that patrolled the water so where did
you travel from and to I I started my
journey uh down in the males right down
in the in the most southern area I found
a a boat and I charted it at took a
couple of days to get there and what
really horrified me was not just
visiting these islands which are full of
the derelict homes there's still
magazines there's cups it's it's like a
place Frozen it's like a ghost time it's
it's like a place where people have the
door has opened they've been told get
out and they've left everything as it
was the the the the houses are now
obviously have been uh encroached by the
jungle but the churches are still there
the graveyard is still there the shops
the the you have a real sense of the
place it once was a thriving Community
where people lived very very happily and
what's even more shocking is that there
are now kind of new AG Travelers I I
don't mean that in that sense but there
are now Yachts men and women from all
across the world living there living in
these houses so they're not supposed to
be there so I I can't I couldn't get my
head around the fact that these
Islanders who are a desperate group in
in maitia stells and and lond Crawley
now why they're not allowed to go home
and yet these people who have the
benefit of of their own boats can go
back to these islands it didn't make
sense uh I was eventually we tried to
get closer to Diego Garcia and the Royal
Navy came up to us and very politely uh
asked us uh to move on but I was there
for long enough to see that in my eyes
my opinion those islands could be
resettled there's just been a
feasibility study I went to see William
ha last year to ask about this
feasibility study he got KPMG to to do
this report and they have come up with I
suppose you could argue it's it's
relatively positive they have said that
there is no legal obstacle to the
Islanders returning they've estimated
that for 150 Islanders it would cost uh
uh1 million pound a year I think that's
way too high maybe that's my adventuring
background I think life could be done
much simpler than that they don't need a
great big hospital they need a very
simple little medical facility a get
volunteer doctors I've always argued
that if this Marine protectorate area is
there to say then let's bring back the
Islanders in the capacity as wardens as
protectors let's let make them look
after this area themselves and and
that's the excuse for them to go back
let's bring scientists back they can
study so I I don't see that there is
anything to preclude their return but
the government consecutively both labor
and conservative governments have made
it and the and the um Coalition now have
made it increasingly hard for the
Islanders to return and I think quite
frankly they wish that this would just
disappear but it's people like me and
I'm not the only one incidentally there
are there are a group of us who've been
campaigned uh for many many years try to
keep this uh in in the headlines and
next year it's going to go to Parliament
and it's down to MPS to decide on the
fate of the choian they it's it's our
Parliament who will once and for all
make that decision as to whether
irelanders can go back to Diego Garcia
and live within sight of the Airfield I
don't think the US have anything to hide
now we know what's just been going on
the CIA released it Ben you mentioned in
the beginning that there was a 50 years
lease given to the Americans but some 20
years left what happens at the end of
that 20 years well actually the 50 years
is up now because it was done in ' 64 so
it's over now but there was an extension
a possible extension of 20 years which
is actually was included in it so that
is accepted that it it will go ahead
unless there are extenuating
circumstances I would personally argue
that the revelations that the islands
were used as a place of torture would be
extenuating circumstances the choian
people themselves the choian support
group uh based here in the UK certainly
um have agreed that they will back that
um 20 years as long as the US agree to
let them return to Diego Garcia Island
itself it would be a natural place for
them to begin the reinhabitation of the
islands there's water there's
electricity they've got all the basic
infrastructure that they could possibly
need well there's 4,000 US military
people that live there they've got
swimming pools they've got basketball
courts they've got cafeterias the the US
have have lived there very very happily
for for 50 years so why can't the choian
people it's hard work but somebody's got
to do it the uh Revelations that you
allude to there are uh dark and Sinister
not only that Diego Garcia may have been
a staging post for these Renditions
which are effectively International
kidnappings but that torture at the base
may also have taken place can you shed
any light on that I can't necessarily
shed any Li except for speak for my own
opinions or thoughts on that it's it's
horrific it's horrific on a on a basic
level that these tortures happened
anyway but the fact that we have leased
these islands to the Americans makes us
complicit whether we've discover any
more um uh details about how involved we
were in these tortures don't know but
the bottom line is that we lease these
islands uh arguably in good faith but
that simply was not the case and that's
why I will carry on fighting this
campaign well God bless you I was there
when David millerand spoke I saw his
lips move when he denied that any of
these rendition flights had passed
through Diego Garcia it was a bright
shining lie Ben Fogle thanks very much
more power to your elbow thank you
alas that's all we've got time for do
stay in touch with us in the new year on
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Happy New Year from me gatri and from me
George Galloway it's been marvelous most
of it
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